Chuck Barris, Gong but not forgotten

GEORGE WAYNE Q&A

elevision today, which features lots of people willing to do anything to be on-air, owes a good deal to The Dating Game, The Newlywed Game, and The Gong Show, whose Dr. Frankenstein was Chuck Barris, a colorful ex-TelePrompTer salesman and boxing promoter whose ABC-TV business card once read, "Duke of Daytime." On the eve of the release of the movie made from his autobiography, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, Barris reminisces about his purported service as a C.I.A. assassin, his years in Saint-Tropez, and those unforgettable Popsicle Twins.

George Wayne: You always wanted to be a writer.

Chuck Barris: Yeah, it was a fantasy, and it became a reality—when I made enough money to live happily ever after. If I would have had to keep on working, I wouldn't have been a writer. But the fact is that I could stop working. I took off and went to the South of France, so I did it in style.

G.W. Chuck Barris is one of the most brilliant minds of American television. Would you put yourself in the category of Dick Clark and Aaron Spelling?

C.B. Yeah, I would, no question about it.

G.W. When you think about it, Chuck Barris really and truly created reality televisioneven though he's been called "the Ayatollah of Trasherola."

C.B. "Ayatollah of Trasherola?" I've never heard that one. I created shows that I thought were entertaining. At the time, in 1965, ABC was opening up their daytime television, and they were looking for a teenage kind of show. They had American Bandstand, and they were looking for that kind of audience, so I created The Dating Game. It was the first game show in television history that didn't have a right answer or a wrong answer.

G.W. And The Gong Show?

Everything about The Gong Show was kitsch, from the goofy set to your mop of curly hair.

C.B. We were trying to find a talent show, because at that time there were no nightclubs, no venues for variety shows, so where would a good act get to show themselves? We went out looking for good acts but couldn't find any. So we decided not to do a good-act show, but a bad-act show.

G.W. Everyone loved to hate The Gong Show, but they couldn't help but watch. You pushed limits.

C.B. Yeah, definitely, but the limits were ridiculous. We couldn't say "toilet." We couldn't say "making love"; we had to say "making whoopee." It was part of the entertainment of The Gong Show to push the envelope. Like the Popsicle Twins. Every time we came to tape our show, the censors would cut one act. They thought that if they cut one act, then they'd done their job. And sometimes they'd cut a pretty good act that had no reason to be cut. So I decided to come in with a couple of acts that were blatantly unusable, like the Popsicle Twins. I figured they would say we couldn't use them. They caused such a stir. I mean, they were these two cute little frecklefaced girls about 16 and 17 years old. They sat on the stage and started giving head to Popsicles. The most incredible head I ever saw. The censors didn't say anything, so we put them on the air. G.W. Not only did you create television that has been the inspiration for others, but you also created the idea of first-run syndication, which is what drives television today. C.B. That's right.

G.W. You sold Chuck Barris Productions in the 1980s for $100 million. How old were you at the time?

C.B. I was 50 years old.

G.W. Most people think you should have titled the book Confessions of a Dangerously Delusional Mind. Are you going to look me in the eye right now and tell me you worked for the C.I.A. ?

C.B. I'm not going to tell you anything about that.

G.W. So why did you write about it?

C.B. If you want to know about it, read the book, but I'm not going to say anything about it.

G.W. So obviously it was a figment of your imagination?

C.B. I'm not going to talk about it.

G.W. You were trying to get a movie made about the book, and George Clooney came to the rescue. He's the director. Julia Roberts plays a C.I.A. operative, and Drew Barrymore is your girlfriend.

C.B. And Sam Rockwell plays me, and he's sensational. He got all my mannerisms, and he's just wonderful. G.W. Who knows, Oscar 2003's best actor could come down to Sam Rockwell playing Chuck Barris, and Greg Kinnear playing Bob Crane. Is it true you've had sex with more women than Wilt Chamberlain?

C.B. No, not even remotely close.

G.W. What achievement are you most proud of?

C.B. Marching from Selma to Montgomery. I was one of the original marchers for the civil-rights movement.